|A Conversation with a Jehovah's Witness|
|Date: Sun, 1
Jun 1997 15:08:29 -0400 (EDT)
From: Rolaant McKenzie
Subject: Re: question
On Sun, 1 Jun 1997, Steve wrote:
> > > Yes, I expect what we teach today will be changed as we see more
> > > fulfillment of prophecy, but right now 6/1/97 what we know is the best
> > > that we or anyone can know.
> > But since JWs have been so unreliable in understanding prophecy and
> > adhering to the Bible teaching in the past and present, their teachings
> > are not reliabe and likely in error today.
> Didn't you read what I wrote above? I said that I expect them to be in
> error and that will be determined when we see more fulfillment of bible
> prophecy except that right now we know of nothing better than what we
> have and you have not given anything better.
Yes, I did. If you expect them to be in error, then you are following
people who not only have been in error many times in the past, but
are likely in error now, and will continue to be in error in the future.
If that is the best JWs offer, and depend on for truth, then their
so-called truth is like standing on shifting sand. And that will not
save them at all. If JWs foundation was on faith in Jesus Christ alone
for salvation, they would not have this problem.
> > For starters, JWs can admit the errors of the past and stop calling their
> > organization Jehovah's sole channel of truth. It can also start preaching
> > the gospel as found in the Bible.
> We can't stop calling our organization Jehovah's sole channel because it
> is. If you don't think so, tell me who else is. YOu have alot of
> criticism but no substance behind it. We do preach the gospel as found
> in the bible. Gospel means good news and we preach the good news of the
Then JWs show their lack of repentance when they continually say in
spite of their history that their organzization is Jehovah's sole
channel. JWs' organization is NOT Jehovah's sole channel because Jehovah
does not flip-flop in truth and does not make predictions that don't come
I have already demonstrated that JWs DO NOT preach the gosepl in the
Bible because they promote salvation by works, something the Bible does
not teach. You cannot show me from Scripture that the apostles and early
Christians believed and preached as JWs preach. It is a different gospel
JWs preach, and one that falls under condemnation of apostle Paul in Gal
It saddens me that JWs keep looking to being in an organization instead
of to Christ for their salvation. You ask me who Jehovah's sole channel
of truth is? It is Jesus Christ!
> > But JWs have not ceased from the particular sin of false prophesying, as
> > evidenced from their history up to contemporary times. So John 8:11
> > doesn't get JWs off the hook.
> How have we not ceased? I did not hear any false prophesying at the
> meeting today, did you?
Have JWs repented of all the other false predictions they made and
stopped calling their organization Jehovah's sole channel (when it is
obvious it is not)?
> > What you cannot show me from the Bible, however, is one case where a
> > prophet made false predictions while speaking for God and then still
> > being considered a true prophet.
> Even if there were no cases that does not make it the unforgivable sin.
But since there is no case in the Bible, JWs cannot rightly continue to
promote the deception that their organization is Jehovah's sole channel of truth.
> > > If we are not the sole channel of truth, then who else is?
> > Jesus says that He is the way, the truth, and the life. Jesus is the
> > truth, not a manmade organization.
> Jesus is not here. He is a spirit being in heaven. Try again.
> Who else is besides us are God's channel of truth on earth?
Hmmm ... Jesus said in Matt 27:20 that He would be always with us until
the end. Why do JWs contradict Scripture here?
> > > The WTS has repented in that they have turned around and changed to the
> > > true teachings. That is better than the other churches in that they
> > > still teach the wrong when they know it is wrong.
> > But the WTS has not changed to true teachings because it still teaches a
> > false gospel, different from what the apostles taught.
> Again, no substance to what you say. Just accusatins. You do not say
> how it is different. YOu just say that I am wrong but you do not say
> what is right. I will say that you are a false teacher since you do not
> give the student the correction to go.
I pointed out to you earlier that the apostles did not teach that 1914,
1918, 1925, 1975 were significant dates. That is different from what the
apostles taught. They also did not make false prophecies, and still
claim to be true prophets. Or can you not see that?
> >They still teach
> > salvation through an organization rather than by the grace of God alone
> > through faith in Jesus Christ alone.
> And you do not know what you are talking about. WE do not teach or
> believe that.
You told me earlier that those who do not become part of JW's
organization will not be saved. That is making membership in JWs'
organization a condition for salvation. Therefore, JWs depend on
salvation through their organization rather than on faith in Christ
alone. This is contrary to Biblical teaching and as false a gospel as the
ones taught by SDA, Mormons, Christian Scientists, adn other cults.
> > > Just because it does not specifically state that does not mean that it
> > > can not happen and that it is the unforgivable sin.
> > But JWs have no Biblical mandate to call themselves a prophet of God,
> > either.
> And we don't except that we proclaim God's word.
But I have showed you quotes from the WTS that say that their words are
God's words, not man's. It promotes the idea that what it says is truth
from God. It isn't truth from God if it doesn't come to pass. Therefore,
JWs' words through the WTS are NOT God's words, but their own only.
Not to mention that the gospel they preach is not found in the Bible,
making it a false gospel.
> > You can't show me from the Bible because you know good and well it isn't
> > there. This the problem JWs have and why their organization is NOT
> > directed by Jehovah.
> Then that means that no one on earth is directed by Jehovah. This earth
> and humanity is pretty sorry then.
Not really. Jesus preomised the Holy Spirit to guide believers. He did
not say that one organization would be directed by God and that we should
look to it for salvation.
> > You have just made my point. JWs tear down the faith of others in order
> > to make them JWs.
> Great. That is what the apostles did.
Show me where the apostles taught salvation through an organization,
though. Can you?
> >What I seek to do is promote faith in Jesus Christ
> > alone for salvation. JWs promote faith in a manmade organization for
> > salvation, contrary to Scripture.
> And that is why I don't listen to you. I am not out for salvation so
> your message is not one for me.
I don't want followers or people to look to me for salvation. I want them
to look to Jesus Christ alone for salvation. If you are not concerned about
being saved, then the message you and JWs preach have no real hope.
> We promote salvation through God's kingdom through Christ.
But the Jesus says, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one
comes to the Father except through me." John 14:6
It appears JWs promote salvation through their organzizaiton rather than
through faith in Christ alone. Scripture, contrary to what JWs teach,
says clearly that salvation is through faith in Christ alone, not through
serving an organization.
> The organizaiton is not manmade.
It is manmade since Jehovah is not directing it (evidenced by the many
false prophecies and doctrinal flip-flops).
> > There you go again. Looking for some organization for truth.
> No, I look for a congregation for association to stay faithful. It is
> not related to truth.
But you said before that you and JWs follow what the WT says is truth.
Therefore, JWs look to their organziation rather than to Christ, for truth.
> I have
> > presented to you what the gospel is according to the Bible you and JWs
> > claim to believe. I gave you many Biblical passages to show that
> > salvation comes not through faith in an organization, but by the grace of
> > God alone through faith in Jesus Christ alone. You have made no comment
> > on those Scriptural passages.
> Yeah so what about it? WHAT DO I DO WITH IT NOW?
Try believing and following it.
> > The Bible does teach that believers are to not forsake the gathering, but
> > it also warns believers not to follow false prophets. Believers should
> > assemble with those who teach the gospel that the apostles taught, since
> > teaching a different gospel does not save anyone.
> So tell me where in my area I should go? Don't you have a congregation
> in my area?
Find a Christian church that preaches the gospel as it is in the Bible,
the one that the apostles taught. If any church teaches a different
gospel (regardless of denomination), then stay away from it! You would
need to look around your area and find a church that teaches salvation by
the grace of God alone through faith in Christ alone. But don't don this
without praying for God's guidance. If you ask sincerely, He will guide
you to such a congregation.
> > > If you think that you have something better than I do then say it.
> > I presented it to you before. Remember the Bible passages I presented to
> > you describing what the gospel is?
> AND WHAT DO I DO WITH IT?
Believe and follow it.
> Believing is not enough. How about acting upon it? I know the bible
> passages quite well. I know the good news of the kingdom. But you
> don't say what to do with it.
I just did twice. You need to learn that salvation is not something you
can earn, but something accepted as a gift by faith in Christ alone. It
took me most of my life to understand this, because human nature wants to
work for salvation, but once I did it has given me a joy and assurance
that has transformed my life.
> > > If you are just out to tear down my faith, I do not believe in tearing
> > > down faith. I replace bad faith and teachings with good, why can't
> > > you? WE have Christ and he leads us.
> > I present the gospel according to the Bible to you, but you tear down my
> > faith when you tell me that if I do not become a JW I will not be saved.
> So you have faith that while not being one of Jehovah's Witnesses you
> will be saved? Saved from what?
Yes. Sin and eternal separation from God.
> I tell you that if you do not have faith in the bible's teachings and
> exercise that faith and associate with Jehovah's Witnesses, the
> worldwide brotherhood, you will not be pleasing to God and not obeying
> Christ. Because of that you are not on the narrow road and thus not
> proceeding to salvation.
But there Bible does not teach that salvation comes through being a
Jehovah's Witness. This is contrary to Scripture and a false gospel. JWs
actually disobey Christ by promoting a false gospel.
> > >From talking to you, it is quite clear that you have not replaced bad
> > teachings with good, since you have demonstrated a total lack of
> > understanding of what the gospel of Christ is.
> You have not tried to explain it except in saying "Christ alone". That
> is not the gospel.
I did but you do not want to listen to it. You and JWs promote a false
gospel when they say salvation comes through their organization. The
Bible says salvation comes through faith in Christ alone. Read and consider
these Biblical passages I presented to you before:
Jesus Christ, His life, death and resurrection. (1 Cor 15:1-4)
Salvation is only through Christ. (John 14:6, Acts 4:12)
Salvation is a gift of God's grace. (Ephesians 2:8-9)
Salvation is by faith alone. (Ephesians 2:8-9)
Salvation is attained by Christ. (Romans 5:9)
Salvation is at the moment a sinner believes the Gospel. (Ephesians 1:13-14)
Salvation is secured by God. (John 10:27-30)
Sins are expiated by Christ's blood. (Romans 3:25)
Salvation glorifies God alone. (Ephesians 1)
The work of salvation is finished. (John 19:30)
If salvation can be worked for, then Jesus died for nothing. (Romans
3:20, 27-28; 4:2-6; 9:30-33; Galatians 2:16).
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