|A Conversation with a Jehovah's Witness|
|Date: Fri, 30
May 1997 19:50:35 -0400 (EDT)
From: Rolaant McKenzie
Subject: Re: question
On Fri, 30 May 1997, Steve wrote:
> > But JWs did set dates for most of their history while speaking for
> > Jehovah, and not one of them came to pass.
> Did is past tense. And so what if they did? What can I do about it?
> If I had a Delorean with a flux capacitor I can go back and change
> things but I can't.
But if JWs did such things in the past (including doctrinal flip-flops), as
you admit, then there is no assurance that what they teach today can be
relied on as true. Following such an unreliable organization is like
remaining on a sinking ship when a lifeboat is available.
> >Striving to please God to me
> > means obeying His word. JWs are not obeying the Bible, God's word, when
> > they have spoken for Jehovah in predicting the end.
> Your grammar is off. How can you comment on our present tense because
> of what happened in the past?
I can because JWs have not repented of those sins. And they still try to
claim to be God's sole channel of truth.
> This is what Jesus handled past sins:
> John 8:10-11 10 Straightening up, Jesus said to her: "Woman, where are
> they? Did no one condemn you?" 11 She said: "No one, sir." Jesus said:
> "Neither do I condemn you. Go your way; from now on practice sin no
What you will not find in Scripture, however, is that of a false prophet
becoming a true one.
> She sinned in the past. But Jesus' point was "Go and sin no more". He
> did not condemn her past as long as her future was good.
But the past and future of JWs has not been good due to its continual
flase claims to being Jehovah's sole channel of truth. And the WTS has
not repented of its false teachings.
> > Deut 18:21 plainly
> > says that people who make false predictions while speaking for God, God
> > has not sent. So whatever JWs say the purpose of the dates are for, the
> > fact that none have come true prove beyond a shadow of doubt that the WTS
> > (JWs) do not speak for Jehovah.
> And Jesus said "Go and sin no more". Jesus does not care about the date
> setting any more than he cared about her past sins.
But the Bible you claim to uphold says that a false prophet is revealed
when the prophecy does not come to past. And the Bible does not say
anywhere that a prophet can make a false prophecy and then be considered
a true one later.
> > > > But then JWs and the WTS cannot rightly claim to be Jehovah's mouthpiece,
> > > > or sole source of God's truth in the world. Because they continue to do
> > > > so shows they are not of God.
> > >
> > > Continue? How can you claim continue?
> > Maintaining that the WTS is Jehovah's sole source of truth on earth after
> > failing so many times in prophetic and doctrinal matters while speaking
> > for Him is a continuation of the deception.
> Not the WTS but the overseers of the worlwide congregation of Jehovah's
> Witnesses are the source of truth. It is just printed by the WTS.
Even then, the overseers through the history of JWs has engaged in
proclaiming false prophecies while claiming to speak for Jehovah. The
overseers are then making invalid claims and participating in deception, and
those who follow them do so at their peril.
> >The claims JWs make for
> > themselves and their organization are proven to be false based on their
> > history.
> Then whose claims are right?
Not JWs, that's for sure. The claims of what the Bible teaches regarding
salvation are true, however. The claims that Jesus made regarding being
the only way to the Father and being the truth are true.
> > > > A prophet who makes false predictions
> > > > remains a false prophet. He doesn't become a true one after
> > > > abandoning a prediction that failed to come to pass.
> > >
> > > I do not agree. You are claiming that that is the unforgivable sin and
> > > that is not true.
> > Can you show me one example in the Bible where a prophet made repeated
> > false predictions while speaking on behalf of Jehovah and was still
> > considered a true prophet?
> Does it matter? What is your point in this? It seems that you have
> your beliefs and, might I say, accusations all summed up. If you are
> trying to convince me that we are wrong, I have been through this
But what you cannot do is show me one example in the Bible where a
prophet made repeated false predictions while speaking on behalf of
Jehovah and was still considered a true prophet.
> But one difference is that we don't just condemn people's faith and
> leave it at that, we help them come to a faith.
But when JWs conduct their book studies with potential converts, the idea
is to demonize all other churches so that the person will become a JW. So
JWs do condemn the faiths of others in order to keep members in and to
bring in new ones. And the faith that JWs help them to come to is not the
one found in the Bible.
> > > A prophet like Ezekiel has nothing to do with predictions.
> > > And if they were false prophets it does mean one should abandom the
> > > bible. We should still go to meetings and the ministry of faith.
> > If they were false prophets, the Bible says not to listen listen to or
> > follow such people. After all, "No good tree bears bad fruit, nor does a
> > bad tree bear good fruit."
> I know what the bible says myself so I don't need to listen to "them"
> but I do it because the organization is important and it is right.
Even though I have shown from the Bible where the"organization" contradicts
it. Following a congregation that fails to obey Christ is not right, no
matter what the organization claims.
> > > Learn from Israel. They had judges and others whom they had to submit
> > > to not just to God. The Christian congregation has overseers.
> > But Christians DID NOT depend on their congregations for their salvation
> > as JWs do.
> FYI, Salvation is not what is most important to us. Salvation is
> selfish and for what the person gets. WE are concerned about
> vindicating Jehovah's sovereignty.
And yet JWs deny His sovereignty by focusing their devotion on an
organization rather than on Christ. Teaching a false gospel does not
affrim the sovereignty of God. It denies it.
> > > Again, the WTS is not God's organization only. The worldwide
> > > congregtion of Jehovah's Witnesses is God's organization and it is not
> > > manmade. It does not stand in God's place. YOu are inserting
> > > objections that are not valid and you are just making them up.
> > The WTS controls the worldwide congregtion of Jehovah's Witnesses, which
> > is manmade.
> No, the governing body oversees the congregations, not the WTS and it
> does not control it. It is not manmade, if it were it would have been
> done away with by now.
When JWs worldwide follow whatever the WT says, the WT controls the
congregation. Whoever controls the WT controls JWs. Since the Governing
Body decides what gets printed or not, and what JWs believe or not, the
Governing Body, a group of men, are followed by JWs.
> >It stands in God's place when whatever the Governing Body
> > hands down a directive and all members have to obey or risk being
> > disfellowshiped (thereby losing their chance for salvation). It is so sad
> > that you fail to admit the truth of this.
> Have to obey or be disfellowshipped? You have it wrong. When one is
> disfellowshipped, that one chooses to not be with the congregation, so
> that choice is the person's. And if a person is so haughty to do what
> one wants, the do you think that he will last in God's rule? Remember
I guess you refuse to be honest and consider all the hundreds of JWs who
have been disfellowshipped against their will and shunned by their
families and friends.
> > > NO, working together as a people, brotherhood with no denominations.
> > But you said earlier that all people who are truly seeking Christ would
> > become members of your organization. Your denomination.
> The standard is being on the narrow road. Ones on the narrow road would
> believe like us and would comprise our brotherhood.
But if JWs teach a different gospel, which they do, then it seems they
are not on the narrow road after all, but only deceiving themselves.
> And that those
> > outside your organization are not truly following Christ. So I do not
> > understand your statement here. JWs believe and teach that only JWs will
> > survive Armageddon, and that Jehovah will kill everyone else who is not
> > a JW.
> Sounds good to me? Doesn't it to you?
No, because it runs contrary to what the Bible teaches.
> >So who is the body of Christ? Is it only JWs, or is it all those
> > who have a personal relationship with Christ?
> Personal relationship with Christ? How since he is the high priest and
> not God. Our reliationship is with Jehovah God through Jesus.
When I read Romans 8:16-17, 38-39, it sure looks personal to me. I am a
child of God and fellow-heir with Christ (as are all who accept the
gospel of the Bible), that sounds very personal with me.
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