|A Conversation with a Jehovah's Witness|
|Date: Wed, 21
May 1997 23:09:46 -0400 (EDT)
From: Rolaant McKenzie
Subject: Re: question
On Wed, 21 May 1997, Steve wrote:
> RLM wrote:
> > > Did you consider that your beliefs are what is not right? As for JW's,
> > > I agree with their philosophies.
> > Of course, that's part of honest investigation. But there comes a point
> > where one has to decide what is consistent with the Bible and what is
> > not. The Holy Spirit helps believers in this area.
> Yes, that is why the holy spirit is helping the congregation, we are
> consistent with the bible.
How can a congregation be consistent with the Bible when it claims to
speak for God and makes predictions that fail to come to pass? This runs
counter to Biblical teaching. I don't believe the Holy Spirit helps a
congregation to make false predictions on behalf of God.
> > > Organizations don't need income. Only physical things and expenses need
> > > income. Jehovah's Witnesses don't need income to support the
> > > organization except for the printing and building.
> > But organizations make use of physical things to accomplish its goals,
> > therefore it needs and receives income.
> Sure but it not an obligation upon everyone.
So you admit then, that organizations do indeed need income. It is also
an obligation for at least most of its members to financially support
the organization in order to keep it operating.
> > > If one is not in harmony with the bible, then one should change to be in
> > > harmony with the bible. That is why I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses, we
> > > have the proper view of Jesus, and man and the human condition.
> > > Paranoid view of the world? Is that bad? We don't coerce and have
> > > spiritual abuse.
> > One does not have to be a Jehovah's Witness in order to live in harmony
> > with Biblical teaching, because one's denominational affiliation doesn't
> > save. Only faith in Jesus Christ saves.
> But if one does have the faith that saves, then that would would also be
> seeking God and Christ and wanting to do his will with his people.
> Faith that saves has to motivate.
But God's people does not equal only Jehovah's Witnesses. Salvation does
not come by belonging to a particular denomination.
> > > What do you mean by "relying on an organization for fulfillment in
> > > life"? Do you mean for friends and association? People need friends
> > > and association. So you have to rely on the congregation. Why can't
> > > you focus on Jesus and the congregation?
> > Because no one is saved by focusing on Jesus plus something else. People
> > are saved by faith in Jesus Christ alone.
> And we have that faith, but since we also are following him, exerting
> ourselves vigorously as he said, and picking up our torture stakes and
> continually following him, faith alone is also faith with actions.
But it appears to me that you believe that salvation equals faith in
Christ plus following what the Watchtower says. And that is not what the
> > But the purpose of the letters to those congregations was to encourage
> > them to remain faithful to the gospel. Congregations can be united in
> > error. The apostles wrote to ensure that they remained united in the truth.
> Yes, as we do today with the overseers of the circuit and the worldwide
> work from the Society.
So the gospel that Jehovah's Witness preach comes from the Watchtower
Society. The Bible doesn't teach that people should go to the Watchtower
Society for truth.
> > > Right, but after the after the apostles there came an apostacy just as
> > > Jesus fortold. But Jesus also fortold that there would be a restoration
> > > to true worship at the last days. WE are in that restoration now.
> > I see no Biblical support for your conclusions.
> Matt 13: about the weeds and wheat.
But Matt 13 does not say that Jehovah's Witnesses and the Watchtower
Society represent a restoration of true worship in the last days.
> > Also, in my study of
> > early church history I see no group that believed as Jehovah's Witnesses
> > (and the Watchtower Society) believe today. So I do not see them as a
> > restoration of what they believed.
> The apostles and first century Christians believed as we do. After the
> first century the apostacy came in the middle ages but now in this
> century there is a restoration.
Could you show me from the Bible where the apostles taught that the
final end of the kingdoms of this world would take place in 1914,
or that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob would return in 1925, or that the end
of this system would come in 1975?
> > > And alone we tend to not remain strong enough. It does not work like
> > > that.
> > Relying on a congregation doesn't save either. Jesus doesn't call people
> > to rely on an organization for salvation, but on Himself.
> But it does not work in reality like that. Don't fool yourself into
> thinking that, that is what Satan wants. Many think that they can go it
> alone but end of with the world.
But focusing on an organization for salvation, contrary to Biblical
teaching, is what Satan wants, since Christ would no longer be the center.
> > But that is what Romans 14:10-12 says. We will all stand before the
> > judgment seat of God to give an account of ourselves.
> I just read that and but it does not say that is for what we do today.
> Then that would be works and for us to boast. Our works now are sinful
> but it must be about future works.
But that not what the text says. It says that each one of us will render
an account for himself to God.
> > > > No organization, however, no matter what it claims for itself, can save
> > > > anyone. Only Jesus saves those who put their trust in Him. Those who
> > > > believe the gospel and accept Him as Lord and Savior by faith.
> > >
> > > Right that the organization does not save. But when there are 5.4
> > > million people following Christ, and the rest are not, those 5.4 million
> > > form an organization of saved people. Those not with them are not
> > > following Christ.
> > How can you be certain the rest are not? Do you believe only those
> > associated with Jehovah's Witness and the Watchtower Society are saved?
> > If so, then I submit that you have faith in an organization for salvation
> > rather than Christ alone. And this is contrary to Biblical teaching.
> If they are following Christ, then they would be with us on the narrow
> road just as if it were literally a road with Christ on the lead. I
> believe that only Jehovah's Witnesses (as we are the ones associated
> with the Watchtower Society) are the ones seeking to please God and
> doing his will his way. Others may be good people but being good does
> not equal faith. And if others of other religions think that they have
> faith, then why don't they show it? Saying that only Jehovah's
> Witnesses are to be saved is not saying that faith in an organization.
> It is saying that only this group is doing what God requires for
Then it is certainly true that Jehovah's Witnesses teach a different
gospel, the kind that Paul condemned in Gal 1:6-9. Nowhere in the Bible
does it say that one must become a Jehovah's Witness in order to be
saved. Having faith in Christ does not equal being a Jehovah's Witness.
BTW, Jesus said in Acts 1:7-8 that we are to be His witnesses. He did not
say that we were to be Jehovah's Witnesses. Why do Jehovah's Witnesses
act contrary to the words of Christ by calling themselves "Jehovah's
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