|A Conversation with a Jehovah's Witness|
|Date: Sat, 31
May 1997 23:31:41 -0400 (EDT)
From: Rolaant McKenzie
Subject: Re: question
On Sat, 31 May 1997, Steve wrote:
> > > Did is past tense. And so what if they did? What can I do about it?
> > > If I had a Delorean with a flux capacitor I can go back and change
> > > things but I can't.
> > But if JWs did such things in the past (including doctrinal flip-flops), as
> > you admit, then there is no assurance that what they teach today can be
> > relied on as true. Following such an unreliable organization is like
> > remaining on a sinking ship when a lifeboat is available.
> Yes, I expect what we teach today will be changed as we see more
> fulfillment of prophecy, but right now 6/1/97 what we know is the best
> that we or anyone can know.
But since JWs have been so unreliable in understanding prophecy and
adhering to the Bible teaching in the past and present, their teachings
are not reliabe and likely in error today.
> > > >Striving to please God to me
> > > > means obeying His word. JWs are not obeying the Bible, God's word, when
> > > > they have spoken for Jehovah in predicting the end.
> > >
> > > Your grammar is off. How can you comment on our present tense because
> > > of what happened in the past?
> > I can because JWs have not repented of those sins. And they still try to
> > claim to be God's sole channel of truth.
> How would our behavior show repentance according to you?
For starters, JWs can admit the errors of the past and stop calling their
organization Jehovah's sole channel of truth. It can also start preaching
the gospel as found in the Bible.
> As John 8:11 says "Go and sin no more" did ont mean that the woman was
> to be free of sin, it was that she was not to commit that particular
> sin. But Jesus did not ask for repentance as the ceasation of sin was
> the repentance.
But JWs have not ceased from the particular sin of false prophesying, as
evidenced from their history up to contemporary times. So John 8:11
doesn't get JWs off the hook.
What you cannot show me from the Bible, however, is one case where a
prophet made false predictions while speaking for God and then still
being considered a true prophet.
> > > This is what Jesus handled past sins:
> > >
> > > John 8:10-11 10 Straightening up, Jesus said to her: "Woman, where are
> > > they? Did no one condemn you?" 11 She said: "No one, sir." Jesus said:
> > > "Neither do I condemn you. Go your way; from now on practice sin no
> > > more."
> > What you will not find in Scripture, however, is that of a false prophet
> > becoming a true one.
> So are you saying that that is the unforgivable sin? Where in scripture
> does it say that?
First, show me anywhere in the Bible where a person who made false
predictions while speaking for God was considered a true prophet anyway.
> > > She sinned in the past. But Jesus' point was "Go and sin no more". He
> > > did not condemn her past as long as her future was good.
> > But the past and future of JWs has not been good due to its continual
> > false claims to being Jehovah's sole channel of truth. And the WTS has
> > not repented of its false teachings.
> If we are not the sole channel of truth, then who else is?
Jesus says that He is the way, the truth, and the life. Jesus is the
truth, not a manmade organization.
> The WTS has repented in that they have turned around and changed to the
> true teachings. That is better than the other churches in that they
> still teach the wrong when they know it is wrong.
But the WTS has not changed to true teachings because it still teaches a
false gospel, different from what the apostles taught. They still teach
salvation through an organization rather than by the grace of God alone
through faith in Jesus Christ alone.
> > > And Jesus said "Go and sin no more". Jesus does not care about the date
> > > setting any more than he cared about her past sins.
> > But the Bible you claim to uphold says that a false prophet is revealed
> > when the prophecy does not come to past. And the Bible does not say
> > anywhere that a prophet can make a false prophecy and then be considered
> > a true one later.
> Just because it does not specifically state that does not mean that it
> can not happen and that it is the unforgivable sin.
But JWs have no Biblical mandate to call themselves a prophet of God,
either. The historical record reveals a line of false prophecies and
doctrinal flip-floops. If Jehovah, who does not change, was directing
JWs' organization, then the truth would be consistently true, rather
wrong and going back and forth. But since JWs have had a consistent
problem with false prophesying and doctrinal flip-flops, this only proves
that Jehovah IS NOT directing JWs' organization.
> > > Does it matter? What is your point in this? It seems that you have
> > > your beliefs and, might I say, accusations all summed up. If you are
> > > trying to convince me that we are wrong, I have been through this
> > > before.
> > But what you cannot do is show me one example in the Bible where a
> > prophet made repeated false predictions while speaking on behalf of
> > Jehovah and was still considered a true prophet.
> I don't have to because if I could it would not make a differnce to you,
> you would just find something else.
You can't show me from the Bible because you know good and well it isn't
there. This the problem JWs have and why their organization is NOT
directed by Jehovah.
> > > But one difference is that we don't just condemn people's faith and
> > > leave it at that, we help them come to a faith.
> > But when JWs conduct their book studies with potential converts, the idea
> > is to demonize all other churches so that the person will become a JW. So
> > JWs do condemn the faiths of others in order to keep members in and to
> > bring in new ones.
> Ah, but we don't tear down faith and leave them at that, like you are
> doing. We show them that the churches are wrong and help them come to a
> right faith and association and a living faith.
You have just made my point. JWs tear down the faith of others in order
to make them JWs. What I seek to do is promote faith in Jesus Christ
alone for salvation. JWs promote faith in a manmade organization for
salvation, contrary to Scripture.
> > > Then whose claims are right?
> > Not JWs, that's for sure. The claims of what the Bible teaches regarding
> > salvation are true, however. The claims that Jesus made regarding being
> > the only way to the Father and being the truth are true.
> This is going to end right here. All that you are saying is the we are
> wrong and the I should not be in the organization. If that is the case,
> then tell me who is right and give me the information of where they are
> in the Grand Rapids MI area. Since you criticize the organization then
> are you suggesting that I stop attending meetings? That course of
> action can not be endorsed by God. He says to associate together and
> not forsake the gathering.
There you go again. Looking for some organization for truth. I have
presented to you what the gospel is according to the Bible you and JWs
claim to believe. I gave you many Biblical passages to show that
salvation comes not through faith in an organization, but by the grace of
God alone through faith in Jesus Christ alone. You have made no comment
on those Scriptural passages.
The Bible does teach that believers are to not forsake the gathering, but
it also warns believers not to follow false prophets. Believers should
assemble with those who teach the gospel that the apostles taught, since
teaching a different gospel does not save anyone.
> If you think that you have something better than I do then say it.
I presented it to you before. Remember the Bible passages I presented to
you describing what the gospel is?
> If you are just out to tear down my faith, I do not believe in tearing
> down faith. I replace bad faith and teachings with good, why can't
> you? WE have Christ and he leads us.
I present the gospel according to the Bible to you, but you tear down my
faith when you tell me that if I do not become a JW I will not be saved.
From talking to you, it is quite clear that you have not replaced bad
teachings with good, since you have demonstrated a total lack of
understanding of what the gospel of Christ is.
And because JWs also share this misunderstanding of the true gospel of
Scripture, and they teach a gospel contrary to that taghut by the
apostles, this means that JWs DO NOT have Christ and are NOT being led
by Him. Rather, they are "tossed about as by waves and carried hither
and thither by every wind of teaching by means of the trickery of men,
by means of cunning in contriving error." Ephesians 4:14
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